Sola Scriptura? Sola scriptura "contradicts" scripture, since it is not found in scripture. kwortham kwortham is offline Junior Member Deal with it.

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Sola Scriptura?

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  apologeticacristiane 1 month ago

  subtitulos con Closed Caption (cc) please
  

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  chadarneson 2 months ago

  ezra1247 - Did the same person that taught you your religion teach you your grammar?
  

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  americanman81 1 week ago

  Where is the book of the bible which contains the canon, I don't see it anywhere. The fact of the matter is that the canon of scripture is part of Holy Tradition, and if you ignore tradition then you do not have Holy Scripture.
  

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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  And you're completely misunderstanding about the view of God's written word. The Bible is and has always been completed since the Church finalised the canon in the late 4th Century A.D. It is one part of a dual-sourced sacred deposit of the Christian faith. Tradition plays a role because it is specifically mentioned in Scripture, as well as being what carried on the Faith and the Church and its gospel message including before there WAS a Bible. The completed canon itself is a Tradition even.
  

  · in reply to ezra1247 (Show the comment)
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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  It is a gift. However, we cannot abuse that gift that we don't even deserve. We can't live just however we want or make up and or freely reject just whatever He taught or His apostles and their successors carried on through word or written letter. And maybe some people add to or take away from it, but the Catholic Church is not one of them. Of course the Bible [the current NT canon especially] the Holy Word of God; the Catholic Church worked for many years to determine the completed canon.
  

  · in reply to ezra1247 (Show the comment)
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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  Ezra I'm actually not deceived. Yes, Jesus is enough. That is why I am doing what He commanded, and have joined into communion with the "One Fold, One Flock, [with] One Shepherd" that He established while He was on earth. Why? Because He said "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments". As well as His having stated "Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will inherit the kingdom, but he who does the will of my Father that is in Heaven". He prayed for us to be "one" in "one flock", did He not?
  

  · in reply to ezra1247 (Show the comment)
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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  By the way, where does it say "the Bible alone" in the Bible, or "Scriptura alone" or "Sola Scriptura"? Where also does it say "Thou shalt only useth the King James Version; if he useth another version, let him be anathema"? Finally where does it say that ONLY Scripture is used to be the absolute sole authority of faith and doctrine. How can the Bible alone [and the KJV at that] theory be correct if that's not what had been taught until the 1520s?
  

  · in reply to ezra1247 (Show the comment)
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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  Finally, why is it said in Paul's letter to Timothy [who was ordained a bishop by Paul, mind you, not just some random congregation-only preacher] that neither a bible or that Scripture was the foundation and only reliable source of truth, but that "the church is the pillar and foundation of truth"? And what other church can legitimately trace back to the first century? Why did Ignatius of Antioch talk about the "Catholic Church" [by name] in 107 A.D., just barely after the last apostle died?
  

  · in reply to ezra1247 (Show the comment)
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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  Furthermore, He intended for us to be within that One Church, not numerous thousands of ever-splitting denominations and so-called "Non-Denominational" groups. Remember how He prayed in the Garden "that they may all be one, even as You [Father] and I [Jesus/Son] are One"? Notice how He gives the Church authority when He says "if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as though he were a gentile or a tax collector" and also gives Peter [specifically] the "keys to the kingdom". Yeah.
  

  · in reply to ezra1247 (Show the comment)
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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  Amen.
  

  · in reply to chadarneson (Show the comment)
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  rjky1986 2 months ago

  So it's just the "Euro Trash". So I guess the Hispanic, African, Native American, South Asian, Middle Eastern, Pacific Islander, and East Asian Catholics are safe and not going to Hell then. Well, least some of us are going to make it according to you, Rev. Ezra. Thank you for schooling us.
  

  · in reply to ezra1247 (Show the comment)

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  Yesterday, 9:35 pm

  kwortham Junior Member   Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Hello. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura "contradicts" scripture, since it is not found in scripture. Deal with it. __________________ 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  #152   Yesterday, 9:41 pm

  kwortham Junior Member   Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 A pillar holds something up, and a ground or bulwark defends it. The church is a pillar and bulwark of truth because it holds up and defends scripture, which is the truth. Scripture itself says it is sufficient in 2 Timothy 3. Do you believe scripture is sufficient, or do you need a Pope and Magisterium as well? Where in 2 Timothy Chapter 3 is the word sufficient use??? Nowhere! Scripture is called "profitable", but never sufficient! Only the Church is called the pillar and ground of the truth. The Church is in charge of scripture and not the other way around, __________________ 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  #153   Yesterday, 9:45 pm

  kwortham Junior Member   Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Please address me respectfully. If you cannot please do not comment at all. I am addressing you as respectfully as it is possible to address someone that preaches the heresy of sola scriptura without showing us a scripture verse that teaches sola scriptura. __________________ 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  #154   Yesterday, 9:52 pm

  Augustus24 Banned   Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 197 Religion: Christian

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by kwortham Where in 2 Timothy Chapter 3 is the word sufficient use??? Nowhere! Scripture is called "profitable", but never sufficient! Only the Church is called the pillar and ground of the truth. The Church is in charge of scripture and not the other way around, Your correct, sorry about that, sufficient is not used. Check out Psalm 19:7-14 David rejoices in God’s Word, declaring it to be perfect, trustworthy, right, radiant, enlightening, sure and altogether righteous. As such, being that the Bible is “perfect,” no other writings are necessary because it is inspired by God and all we need for salvation, life in Christ, and the building of the Kingdom. Quote: The Church is in charge of scripture and not the other way around, Can you show me in your catechism where your denomination claims to be "in charge" of scripture?

  #155   Yesterday, 10:06 pm

  kwortham Junior Member   Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Your correct, sorry about that, sufficient is not used. Check out Psalm 19:7-14 David rejoices in God’s Word, declaring it to be perfect, trustworthy, right, radiant, enlightening, sure and altogether righteous. As such, being that the Bible is “perfect,” no other writings are necessary because it is inspired by God and all we need for salvation, life in Christ, and the building of the Kingdom. The Law of the Lord is perfect! However, Psalm 19:7-14 does not refer to scripture. It refers to the law of the Lord. (Jer 31:33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. Write it in their hearts?! Hmmm! This doesn't sound like a book!!! Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Can you show me in your catechism where your denomination claims to be "in charge" of scripture? __________________ 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  #156   Yesterday, 10:15 pm

  kwortham Junior Member   Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Your correct, sorry about that, sufficient is not used. Can you show me in your catechism where your denomination claims to be "in charge" of scripture? Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to answer this. According to scripture, which bows down to the authority of the Church: (1Tim 3:15) But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Sorry! I don't see the Catechism listed there. I also don't see in my Catechism where it makes that claim for itself. Only the 2000 year old Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. The Catechism only informs someone of the basic tenants of the Church. It does not claim to be complete. __________________ 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  #157   Yesterday, 10:21 pm

  Augustus24 Banned   Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 197 Religion: Christian

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by kwortham Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to answer this. According to scripture, which bows down to the authority of the Church: (1Tim 3:15) But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Sorry! I don't see the Catechism listed there. I also don't see in my Catechism where it makes that claim for itself. Only the 2000 year old Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. The Catechism only informs someone of the basic tenants of the Church. It does not claim to be complete. Scripture does not bow down to the authority of the church. The church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture.

  #158   Yesterday, 10:24 pm

  kwortham Junior Member   Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Scripture does not bow down to the authority of the church. The church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture. If true, then what scripture assumes authority of the Church? The Church gave us scripture. Scripture did not give us the Church! Give me the verse that states that scripture is in command of all that Christians are to believe or surrender. __________________ 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  #159   Yesterday, 10:29 pm

  Augustus24 Banned   Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 197 Religion: Christian

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by kwortham I am addressing you as respectfully as it is possible to address someone that preaches the heresy of sola scriptura without showing us a scripture verse that teaches sola scriptura. Here is the clearest example of Sola scriptura taught in scripture: II Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work." The key words are "complete" and fully equipped". Now, what does it mean to say that one "is fully equipped," if not to say that one is sufficient for a task? To be fully equipped means lacking nothing. Paul expressly rejects any other source of teaching, no Pope, no magisterium or any other rule of faith. That the scriptures fully equip someone for every good work. Is praying to Mary or any other dead person a good work? The scriptures don't say to do that. Or that Mary zoomed off into heaven, is teaching that a good work? Yet the scriptures don't teach that either. The scriptures don't fully equip a person for the aforementioned teachings in fact they know nothing of them at all.

  #160   Yesterday, 10:43 pm

  kwortham Junior Member   Join Date: August 29, 2010 Posts: 134 Religion: Catholic

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Here is the clearest example of Sola scriptura taught in scripture: II Timothy 3:16-17, "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for instruction, for training in righteousness, in order that the man of God might be complete, fully equipped for every good work." The key words are "complete" and fully equipped". Now, what does it mean to say that one "is fully equipped," if not to say that one is sufficient for a task? To be fully equipped means lacking nothing. Paul expressly rejects any other source of teaching, no Pope, no magisterium or any other rule of faith. That the scriptures fully equip someone for every good work. Is praying to Mary or any other dead person a good work? The scriptures don't say to do that. Or that Mary zoomed off into heaven, is teaching that a good work? Yet the scriptures don't teach that either. The scriptures don't fully equip a person for the aforementioned teachings in fact they know nothing of them at all. The key word is profitable. Scripture is profitable as long as it is interpreted by the Holy Catholic Church: (2Pet 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. The scripture referred to in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is Old Testament. Are you saying that only the OT is scripture? Now, are you saying that Christ sinned against the Law of God and let His mother rot? Christ had to honor His mother to fulfill the Law. If He allowed His mother to die and rot in the ground, then He sinned. If Christ sinned, then you have NO hope of salvation. Therefore, Mary was assumed into heaven, or we are all going to hell. Now, are we going to sit on our arses in heaven? No! What does this verse say? (Rev 5:8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Since you believe that Christ sinned against His mother and let her rot, then you do not believe that she is in heaven praying for us. Christ has power over life and death. You say that He let His mother die. Therefore, you teach that Christ sinned against His mother by not preventing her death. What will Christ say about your disrespect of His mother? __________________ 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

  #161   Yesterday, 11:02 pm

  Isaiah45_9 Regular Member Book Club Member   Join Date: June 23, 2011 Posts: 825 Religion: Católico

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Do you really want to discuss 10 doctrines? Why would I not? I did ask for them. Do you remotely think that an internet threat will make me nervous... 1. Universal Papal jurisdiction over all churches to which all churches must submit under pain of eternal damnation. The Pope jurisdiction is clearly seen in Matthew 16:18-19 (Douay Rheims) 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com And in John 21:15-17 (Douay Rheims) 15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. 17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com Perhaps you can show me where in Scriptures it says that the other Apostles are the rock of Jesus Church and where the other Apostles were told to feed Jesus’ sheep. 2. Papal infallibility John 14:16-18 (Douay Rheims) 16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com John 14:26 (Douay Rheims) 26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com We believe this is still true today. Or perhaps you can show me where in Scriptures it says that teaching all truth was limited to the Apostles and not meant for the Church? Like it says in 1 Timothy 3:15 (Douay Rheims) 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com 3. Praying to saints or any dead person You mean intercessory prayers? Heb 12:1 – What do you think the cloud of witnesses mean? Also, you think it is ok to ask a person to pray for you, but not a saint? You believe in evil spirits but not in good spirits? Also in Revelations: Revelation 8:3 (Douay Rheims) 3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com John clearly talks about the interaction of spirits: 1 John 4:1-3 (Douay Rheims) 1 Dearly beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits if they be of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: 3 And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world. Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com Which is also seen by Paul: Ephesians 6:18 (Douay Rheims) 18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit; and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: Show with Knox Bible :: New Jerusalem Bible :: Latin Vulgate :: Haydock Commentary Bible passage courtesy of VeritasBible.com 4. Existence of Purgatory In the Old Testament The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46: “Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin.” In the New Testament In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place. Matthew 12:32 says, “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in Hell from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory. Revelation 21:27: “…but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies.” The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the text around it for context). Reference here: http://www.aboutcatholics.com/belief...-in-the-bible/ Continued __________________ Let nothing disturb you, Let nothing frighten you, All things are passing; God only is changeless. Patience gains all things. Who has God is missing nothing. God alone suffices. Santa Teresa de Avila

  #162   Yesterday, 11:03 pm

  Isaiah45_9 Regular Member Book Club Member   Join Date: June 23, 2011 Posts: 825 Religion: Católico

  Re: Church "authority" Continued from above: 5. Mary as immaculately conceived & 7. Mary flew off into heaven without dying first Not in Scriptures. However we have a Church that not only received the Scriptures but all the forms of Apostolic teaching and the fullness of truth from the Spirit of God. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/immac...and-assumption 6. Mary as co-mediator Again a great answer from CAF http://www.catholic.com/magazine/art...r-of-salvation 8. I dont know if you guys still teach it, but when I was a Catholic, they taught that Mary's hymen remained intact throughout childbirth. If you don’t know why bring it up? We shall not give false testimony… When you find it, then prove it comes from the OHCAC 9. Indulgences I can’t explain this better than CA’s own: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/primer-on-indulgences 10. The theory of transubstantiation that involves the Aristotelian terms of substance and accidents, and medieval alchemical forms. Jesus said the bread and wine were His Body and Blood. The Church has had to define and defend many heresies. Even Scriptures clearly state that not everything is contained in it. If you think the contrary then prove it. Here’s an interesting thread right here on CAF: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=210921 The Church received all truth and the fullness of the faith. __________________ Let nothing disturb you, Let nothing frighten you, All things are passing; God only is changeless. Patience gains all things. Who has God is missing nothing. God alone suffices. Santa Teresa de Avila

  #163   Yesterday, 11:04 pm

  Isaiah45_9 Regular Member Book Club Member   Join Date: June 23, 2011 Posts: 825 Religion: Católico

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Scripture does not bow down to the authority of the church. The church teaches truth and calls men to Christ and, in so doing, functions as the pillar and foundation thereof. The church does not add revelation or rule over Scripture. The church being the bride of Christ, listens to the Word of Christ, which is found in God-breathed Scripture. And how do you know what is God breathed Scripture? Please provide Book, Chapter and Verse that explicitly provides that for us. __________________ Let nothing disturb you, Let nothing frighten you, All things are passing; God only is changeless. Patience gains all things. Who has God is missing nothing. God alone suffices. Santa Teresa de Avila

  #164   Yesterday, 11:19 pm

  joe370 Regular Member   Join Date: May 21, 2007 Posts: 5,905 Religion: Catholic convert

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by Augustus24 Can you show me in your catechism where your denomination claims to be "in charge" of scripture? Even if one could you would reject it - right? Protestant perspective of the CCC = who cares...History on the other hand, is really quite clear regarding the only church that existed for the first 400 years of Christianity i.e. from the time of Ignatius, (100 AD) pupil of an apostle to the time of Augustine (4th century). Could you at least admit that those two men (spanning the first 400 years of Christianity) belonged to the catholic church to which I belong? Very few non-Catholics here at CAF doubt that fact. For example, Ignatius said: "Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." I had thought long ago: if those two men did not belong to the non-Catholic church to which I now (again, past tense) belong then why do I belong to it? Something did not add up. But that's just me... __________________ "The great sins of the world are superficial wounds on My Heart, but the sins of a chosen soul pierce My Heart through and through." Jesus to Saint Faustina Last edited by joe370; Yesterday at 11:30 pm.

  #165   Today, 9:25 am

  Augustus24 Banned   Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 197 Religion: Christian

  Re: Church "authority" Quote: Originally Posted by kwortham The key word is profitable. Scripture is profitable as long as it is interpreted by the Holy Catholic Church: (2Pet 1:20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. The scripture referred to in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is Old Testament. Are you saying that only the OT is scripture? Now, are you saying that Christ sinned against the Law of God and let His mother rot? Christ had to honor His mother to fulfill the Law. If He allowed His mother to die and rot in the ground, then He sinned. If Christ sinned, then you have NO hope of salvation. Therefore, Mary was assumed into heaven, or we are all going to hell. Now, are we going to sit on our arses in heaven? No! What does this verse say? (Rev 5:8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Since you believe that Christ sinned against His mother and let her rot, then you do not believe that she is in heaven praying for us. Christ has power over life and death. You say that He let His mother die. Therefore, you teach that Christ sinned against His mother by not preventing her death. What will Christ say about your disrespect of His mother? Quote: The key word is profitable. Scripture is profitable as long as it is interpreted by the Holy Catholic Church: You are adding words to scripture. Paul did not say profitable as long as your denomination interprets it. He added no other regula fide besides scripture, therefore scripture alone allows a christian to be "fully equipped". Quote: The scripture referred to in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is Old Testament. Are you saying that only the OT is scripture? No Paul quoted from the NT calling it "scripture". Quote: Now, are you saying that Christ sinned against the Law of God and let His mother rot? Christ had to honor His mother to fulfill the Law. If He allowed His mother to die and rot in the ground, then He sinned. If Christ sinned, then you have NO hope of salvation. Therefore, Mary was assumed into heaven, or we are all going to hell. That's a lot of sophistry to prove an extrabiblical doctrine. The first mention of Mary flying off to heaven is in 377 by Epiphanius, and he claims "no one actually knows her end". If it was a doctrine necessary for salvation, then why did no one mention it for almost 350 years. And was Epiphanius dammed because he says that he doesn't actually know what happened? Even Isidore of Seville 300 years later admits that no one knows what happened, is Isidore of Seville dammed now too? The first explicit mention is in 590 by Gregory of Tours. So no Christian actually knew about Mary flying off to heaven until about 600 years after Christ. Were all those Christians dammed as well? Since it is such a late coming doctrine, it is pious opinion, and not binding on all Christians. Also, Jesus had no problem letting his earthly father die, Joseph. Was Jesus sinning when he allowed his dad to die? Quote: Now, are we going to sit on our arses in heaven? No! We are going to be praising God and having a wedding feast. I look forward to it. Quote: What does this verse say? (Rev 5:8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. It says that 20 elders have incense bowls which the smoke is the prayers of the saints. It doesn't tell people on earth to ask anything of anyone in heaven. Nothing about asking anyone in heaven to pray for you. Quote: Since you believe that Christ sinned against His mother and let her rot, then you do not believe that she is in heaven praying for us. Please don't tell me what I believe. I address you respecfully, I ask the same from you. I dont believe that Mary flew off into haven because its not in the scriptures, and no christian seemed to know about it for about 600 years after Christ. I believe Mary is in heaven, but what she is doing in heaven, scripture is silent on that too. Let us not add our own words to scripture. Quote: Christ has power over life and death. You say that He let His mother die. Therefore, you teach that Christ sinned against His mother by not preventing her death. Did Epiphanius teach the same by admitting he didn't know? How about Isidore? No, they are considered saints in the Catholic church, right? Jesus also let his father die, was he sinning against Joseph by letting him die?

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